FIRST DISCUSSION


B: oh - hello, can you add C too?
A: Can C be online?
B: she will, one sec
A: super
C: hey I am here also now, we just had a very long meeting (since 4) and will get some food now
D: Hi
B: hello D!
D: E and me are here
A: hi everybody
B: you are in Moscow, chatting from hotel, right?
D: E's computer is not ok with wifi. "Writing Verbindung hergestellt" we don't know what is that
C: "but you can read and write together, no?" From the initial discussions of the selected scenes and situations, the group gradually begins to write, edit, rehearse and perform these situations and the related discussions in short sequences. An important element to develop these scenes consists in the negotiations amongst the participants themselves, diverging opinions, doubts, misunderstandings and questions should filter into their eventual presentation. Instead of a scripted theatre play the group will try to conclude towards performing and staging small scenes, by making use of elements common in artistic discourse, such as the artist talk or lecture, the public discussion or debate.
D: yes, we are chatting from hotel lobby
C: how is Moscow and what are you doing there? Are you with REP?
D/E: we'll try
B: we are at flutgraben right now, the space in berlin for october
D: this project
C: oh, you see Misiano also!
D/E: Moscow is fine, not hot, and less crowded then often; yes, could talk to him about October project if needed
C: yes, I think that would be perfect actually
C: I wonder, also because we had a long day with meetings, where we should start and what to discuss first, of course there are some practical things, and it would be very nice if we would find time to actually write with each other, start using the wiki and discuss different situations... But I wonder if we need more time and concentration for it?
A: First thing I want to tell that I didn't tell everything about Wiki to D, but I will help with puting all on wiki, it will work!
D/E: for training wiki? yes, but if we have to start with that, let's do
C: yes, we can take some time to practice also, can I ask you how long you will be in Moscow and if maybe we will have a chance soon to meet again and continue? here is the link to the wiki
A: I mostly finished letter to D and E where I explane how to use wiki step by step, so maybe we don't need to practice now.
B: well, I also have three questions in mind - first, what about invitation to other guests, like Misano etc; second is it still a question, if for instance Vova or Leysa take part in october project; third how to collect some documents of conversations that are of interest for us
C: we only have to start with it, if we want to use it for writing today. maybe we also have to discuss more practical or methodological matters without the wiki.
It's great A! Thanks!
A: let's make a list of things that we are interested in and we will contact with cca - they will help us with providing all info we are interested in I hope
B: yes, thanks for that - I too think, that practicing and using wiki can wait a little and we should work with it, when we have more time
C: yes, I should also make a list of documents which I have, which is not too much
D/E: We are in Moscow till 9th and can discuss the project with Misiano
Regarding the documents and the work with archive - we'll be only few days in Kiev before October project
B: and if you like, you can invite him already, no? maybe we should decide already on the possible date for a public presentation of october project here, even if we are not quite sure yet, what it will be like?
A: but we can start now because I am in Kyiv
D/E: yes, certainly, we can
C: yes, that would be good, A.
D/E: for 17th or 18th?
C: second
B: how long are you staying maximum in Berlin, D?
D/E: I have to be in Kiev on 19th morning
B: so, we should maybe even go for 16th of Ocotber, since 17th is a Monday, for presentation?
C: maybe we can manage to present on 16th already. So I would invite him for 16th/17th
B: tough I believe in Berlin Monday or Sunday for presentation doesn't make too much of a difference actually
C: here are some documents I can think about now, that I know I have
"Found Stuff" (exhibition by Taranenko?)
"Portfolio" (Rashkovetsky / Roytburd)
texts on zombie
"Interview with Leiderman on Odessa art scene"
"Interview with Vojtsechov on Odessa art scene"
"Interview with Chatskin (in Russian) on Odessa art scene"
"Office Games" - video by Kulshitzky / chekorsky
"documentary by ccck" on ua institutions (maybe not relevant)
"images of odessa art-scene from guelman archive"
thin catalogue of "after the wall"
D: yes, and let's decide wlat dokuments we miss
C: and which situations we have in mind, which could be inetersting
B: also, if you should not have time to work on wiki yourself, you can always send me notes, documents, remarks and I can put them up for you
C: for instance in ksak archive i've seen "video recordings of art openings in moscow", I believe with brenner and leiderman (can be different videos / openings). I was wondering why ksak, so, cca chisinau had these documents, who sent them to them? and why cca kiev didn't have them
C: "founding of CCA Kiev closing of SCCAs/CCAs"
"professionalism, curating through CCA Kiev"
"local versions"
"constitution of R.E.P."
"problem of language" and "mediation of experience in CCC"K
that are the issues which documents Inga mentioned don't touch
C: would it be possible for you to bring maybe videos of the "first public actions" by rep and "lyrnik"? as a reference?
D/E: yes, we could
D: maybe, A, if you can look into the cca archive, you will also find names that you know and are interested in, because when I looked at it, I didn't know any ukrainian or russian artists. from ccck we have a few documents, I don't know if I would find the tapes of the first interviews with onuch, soloviov and yulia, or if ingela has them (and I don't know if we need them) and the publication, some images of the first "wall-newspaper" in cca
D/E: what's interesting for me is comparing REP collective life and work in time of Orange revolution (forming the first REP) and "the end 2005 division of the group" (forming second REP)
C: professionalism of cca / it is of course not so obvious, but maybe even a poster of the warhol exhibition or the logo of cca in the beginning, maybe something like this could be interesting. Sorry, I don't want to write too much too quickly, but maybe it would be interesting to have "very early press-releases of cca kiev and look at its language, how do they describe art and artists?" CCA wanted to provide the standard with releases and so on, based on western standards. may be they looked fanny on the pictures as well. new publicity could relate to this new standart. so the question is of course: who is the public in this new understanding and how did Open Society think about making this public
A: Is academy of fine arts is ineresting? for example institute of problems of contemporary art under Sidorenko was made as an idea of paralel but official part of academy. D am I right?
C: not everything needs documentation / documents also. I agree, it is interesting to look at this division of group maybe also forming the hudrada / art council later on
D/E: The Parta magazine which represents probematic of Urainian "mid-Soros" 90th and Chetver magazine with lot's of interviews of people of the artscene (Onuch, Kuzma, Tzagolov, Soloviev) form 2000 (late Soros)
C: i don't know the institute of problems but yuliya and you too mentioned it, too. yes, sounds very good, D
D/E: Regarding Sidorenko institute - yes, it can be discussed they have some publishing, interesting in some sence - extremely senceless
A: and also they are publishing books that are about contemporary art sometimes.
C: In Sofia, Bulgaria, we scanned different publications by open society, its mainly images, but images of different people working together around a table or cross-fades of soros face with cultural projects. I will look for these as well
D/E: also I am interested to speak about Arsenal problematic
C: you mean the programming or the ground and renovation?
we didn't mention pinchuk. I am interested in the preparation of pinchuks museum. for instance when we were there, people were all talking so friendly about soloviov who has his job there
D/E: rather strategy of institution, writing the history through all-ukrainian-art exhibitions and luxury cars standing inside of exhibition space
C: and bourriauds appearance in the preparation and curation of pinchuk
D/E: was it after he left?
C: yes
before!
D/E: what could be also interesting - his post-analise of pinchuk's experience
C: "it was commented on like in a telenovela, like personal life. " I am interested in personal destinies which are forming the history of art. How they are transforming with influence of new standards, public view, how they became public. how there life became performative (I meant that some people's practice is forming the history, of cause it is everywhere like this. But when not a lot of people inside the process, like in our country, it's became more visible than in western countries. So we may read the history through some person's life and deeds. For example Solovievs life. Ore even Sidorenko, who build institution on his person interest. {{So we may understand situation if will look how the decisions were made by person. that there appears a more visible relation between personal life and history, cause of a smaller number of people being involved - I think, Kafka wrote, that this also can be a reason, why every gesture can be a matter of politics, when it comes to small numbers)}}... because his life was not so easy, people were commenting, ach, it is nice he is earning money there and is on the right path again
soloviov was connected with paris commune already? didn't he even program his own space? at the union? maybe i am confusing sth
not so important!
A: he made one of the first famous show in union in 90 or earlier
D/E: "he made cureted shows of paris commune artists in union halls" for instance Space of Cultural revolution done by Soloviov and Savadov in 1994, which marked the end of Paris commune and in some sence entering the Soros period
also in those which don't exist now
A: yes that what i ment
D/E: which were privatized
C: what was privatized?
D/E: artist's union halls
C: interesting
D/E: were first shows of paris commune were
C: that would be interesting! when did they privatize what and why
A: maybe if we are talking about inion we can mention about what private spases thay have
D/E: on gorkogo (which is given for rent) and on vladimirskaya
C: union would be an interesting topic I think
A: I don't think that union is privatized
some spaces of course
C: yes, I understand
B: and all the situations, moments, shifts and breaks you were listing now, how can we get hold of documents that would help us to discuss them - cca, some C has, some you have, something else to look at?
D/E: I see it as two circles. one is Union-Institute of problems- National museum-Arsenal
C: also when we did the first cca discussion, we had these signs and one was the studio, because maybe it is interesting to relate to the discussion the workplaces of artists
D/E: other is Soros-Guelman-Pinchuk
yes, it's important
A: i have a space from union by the way
D/E: contemporary artist go to the private sphere
C: Odessa? Studio? REP?
Artist practices. Paris commune?
Union-Institute of problems- National museum-Arsenal
Soros-Guelman-Pinchuk
D/E: traditional artists are supported by state
C: maybe we can visit it one day (anyas union space)
I know, I remember them from odessa
A: not only traditional... Tiberiy Szilvashi has studio - is he traditional?
C: maybe it is interesting: if we have two chains / circles
Union-Institute of problems- National museum-Arsenal
Soros-Guelman-Pinchuk
we could only give a lecture maybe about them (lots of work). "If we relate these circles to different artistic practices, we can maybe start to speak about language, different use of language (for instance in cca press release or mistakes repeated in ccck), difference of language and problem of translation (between different forms of organisation) and the question appears how artists cooperate, not only with each other but also with cca, guelman, pinchuk, erste, Swedish institute"
C: OH, I FORGOT ONE DOCUMENT
the text from kulshitzky about two girls with swedish money
D/E: "but do that circles relate to different kinds of practice? same people go form Guelman to Institute of problems and form Soros to Arsenal. Same time they can have studios from Union." what does circulate through these circles and what its conditions of circulation are. also with erste bank and swedish institute
if he sent it to you?
or I have to ask him?
C: now I don't know if I have seen the text or not. Maybe I did? I think I don't have it. Maybe it is necessary to translate it yes, you're right D, about circles. but it becomes interesting also with erste bank and swedish institute. maybe it becomes interesting. the question, what works and content appears in the different institutions and projects they created
B: aha, yes that could be an interesting question, what does circulate through these circles and what its conditions of circulation are
C: but I was also thinking before that now that we make this long list, "we will have to start talking about what makes them relevant beyond the local context, or what is exemplary in them"
B: again, for me personally it does of course make an important difference, if there are some bits of documents introducing these situations and allowing to discuss them - since I simply from a lack of knowledge depend on literature
A: we were thinking of creating real union of artists, it is our plane.
C: but it also made sense to think of these circles and how they relate to each other. maybe the practices are not different, but still it is interesting to also look at the practices. i don't know much about paris commune, but there is also a line of organising artistic work by artists, Odessa, paris commune, rep, hudrada.
B said before in a joke, we can invite a very nice, intelligent, older person from berlin union of artist to come to the project. maybe we should, he could advise you. or us
C: now not so many stories relate to it, but i like the situation of the relative exhibition in odessa. where they renovated the aunt's room and showed images of the family. or maybe the question of profession also, like yurij being a chemist.
D/E: check a letter with a photo of eurorenovation "Column for museum" we produced in Arsenal and presented to it. This is our statement about institutional building - I hink it can be added to discussion
C: what is the column? Is it in Moscow? ah! yes!
D/E: in Kiev Arsenal
B: also, do we need to discuss again, whom to invite next to Misiano? Leidermann ...
D/E: yes, Leiderman - will be great to have him, if so - maybe Voitzekhov?
B: or is all this clear to us and we just write to them, inviting to some pulic event on 16/17?
D/E: or it will be too hard to make him come to Berlin?
C: does it make sense to speak about whether, as B said, we need documents, to discuss about specific situations, or whether it is possible for instance on the wiki to start with what we know and what we have heard? I could imagine that we could work on the wiki like this: "each situation links to an own page on which we can try to describe the situation and put personal narratives of it next to it, questions, commentary, images, documents?" I am more worried about the visa time for him
A: but we have a lot of time - if he will start now it is ok
C: I should try to do this by the weekend. I hope it is possible. I am a bit nervous to write to Leidermann, sorry. But B says I should just do it. I agree, I hope I can do it soon
not even 2 months
B: well, to have this kind of project happening in Berlin and not inviting Leidermann - that is just impossible, so C has to write to him very soon
A: I can check on the site of the embessy when is the closest day for giving documents
C: of course, I like him so much, I want him to come!
but he has to do it in kiev, or could it also be odessa?
A: maybe also in Odessa I will ask
C: thanks A
D/E: Voitzekhov? - we can check
C: Vojtsechov, yes. I have to check if I still find his contact. I think before Ingela was writing to his girlfriend before, because she speaks english. but otherwise I write an email in english to you and ask you to write to russian lines and send it to him. possible?
B: I can start taking our remarks from tonight and put them on the wiki, so we all can always see, what documents we could still need
C: yes
B: wiki works very much as a kind of common notebook - so can all be fragments too
D/E: I could try to find the contact of Voitzekhov, if you don't have
C: I will look for it. but would be great if you have it. or i let you know if i don't find it
D/E: but if we decide to invite him - better to contact him in few days
C: yes, I will try
really
maybe its just my concentration going down a bit. I'm just a bit tired
so, D speaks to misiano and I write to leiderman and vojtsechov (and erste bank) in the next 7 days (vojtsechov priority)
presentation will be on the 16th & 17th (more or less)
A: maybe it is because you are almost in tha autumn
B: yes, me too - but last question maybe, is it already decided by Vova, Leysa or else that the don't take part or are they still thinking to come?
A: sorry - out of the theme
B: oh, and I will put up our notes from today, so we have list and can try to find documents
C: oh yes, I would like to make a poster and I would like to use one of the images of Vojtsechov's straight speech for it. Of course I would ask him first. but we should also decide together, what should be on the poster, like texts, fragments. We could use the wiki for it.
here the summer is over! it's really cold
D/E: Better ask Lesia and Vova directly
C: should we do that? we can. but we can also stay the five of us. it feels nice
D/E: for today that didn't tell their decidion
A: maybe a sketch of circles on the poster if we will have it later
C: okay, but no need to pressure
B: well, maybe then we just work as the five of us for now - and see
D/E: but circles are not the only issue
C: yes, could be. maybe we shouldn't use images but ask a grafic designer we know to work with us
A: ok.
D/E: i think Voitzekhovs direct speech is fine
A: that one wiyh arm?
B: me too
C: we have time to develop it. I think it makes sense if we finish the poster in the first week of October. It would be good if we take time to write together
C: you said, you will arrive in kiev only few days before october project. what do you do after moscow?
D/E: Istanbul, then Bratislava
B: ok, so maybe there is not so much else for tonight to discuss then? but maybe we should already decide for next meeting online?
D/E: Krakow between these two
A: E me and D will go in Istanbul
D/E: not Krakow, sorry, Lodz
A: than me amd D in Poalnd (me Krakow - D Lodz)
C: you can open a travel agency
B: we are always in Berlin, Berlin, Berlin and again Berlin
C: wow. crazy!
A: we come from Istanbul on the 22 and sta in Kiev for 6 or 7 days
C: do you think we could meet again on Skype on maybe 6th of September? Or 7th? If B puts everything on the wiki, maybe we could start writing more on the single scenes
A: i can
D/E: 6 and 7th and 8th are the dates of openings in Moscow. We open two shows here. One has two openings
problem that hotel wifi zone and press-conference of our project is really near
C: i don't understand. you mean wifi is a problem and press conference will be soon?
A: i don't have internet in the palce I need to be on monday, so I will need to stay at home but I will try
C: so 5.9. 3 moscow time, 2 kiev time 1 berlin time - we meet again!
D/E: no, we just can not work when conference is going
C: ah ok
D/E: that's all in one hotel
6th morning is fine
B: ok, great - what time is good for you?
D/E: 10 berlin time, 11 kiev time, 12 moscow time
C: juhu
so, then we leave here now and go home. we're both tired. but I think it was good, we got a lot of thoughts together
A: D - I need you still on chat - private



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OCTOBER PROJECT